Posted by: Patrick Mosolf | Sunday, 1 November, 2009

Should A Man Always Pay For A Woman On A Date?

For those people who are unmarried, or perhaps recently divorced, this issue must come up frequently. Its one of those recurring questions of international culture that men (and to a lesser extent, women) must confront regularly.

Currently I’m living in a country where relations between men and women are more heavily scripted, more traditional, and men are expected to pay for everything on a date.

It also happens that recently, for various reasons, I have been having a cash flow problem, and really had to stretch my budget to survive until the next paycheck. All sorts of money saving techniques had to be implemented.

At the same time, I also wanted to meet and go out with different women. Of course, in that process, I should meet at least a few different women and get to know them in order to find out if we are compatible.

A friend of mine was leaving the country and had a going away party. At the party I met one of her friends, we talked, exchanged numbers etc. My friend was enthusiastic and encouraged me to meet her and get to know her. Ironically this same friend (who was leaving the country) had also lent me money so I could survive until my paycheck.

About a week later, I talked with this new acquaintance of mine, and we arranged to meet at a restaurant for our first meeting/ date. During the date, I explained my financial predicament to this woman, so she knew about my situation. The date went on, we talked, and finally it was time to go home. The bill came and it was a lot more than I had been expecting. My new friend had ordered more food than I. So I asked her to help me pay for the bill. I paid more than her, because I knew that her salary is less than mine, but I did not want to pay all, as it would jeopardize my chances of making it to my paycheck. Plus I don’t really believe that I should have to pay for her stuff anyway (although I know that women in this country commonly expect it.)

Later that night when I got home, my friend (who was now overseas already) contacted me by chat. When I told her that I went out with her friend, she immediately asked me if I paid the bill. She replied that her friend must have felt sad because I did not pay for her. And that her friend would take this as a sign that I have no money and I “will not be able to pay for her in the future.” I responded critically and said women should get over this notion that men should always pay for them. After all, they can get a job and work just like I can.

My friend responded that “it means a man really loves a woman cause they can pay everything to get the girl.” This also seemed wrong to me. What kind of man will love a woman after he has just met her and spoken with her at a going away party, talked together maybe one hour? How likely is it to love a woman after such a short time as this? And maybe I would like to be the one who is loved? Maybe I would like that woman to show me that she loves me on the first date? : ) It has been a long time since I met a woman and “fell in love” with her after the first meeting. My friend ended the conversation by stubbornly insisting “man has to pay”.

Again this is the same woman who had lent me money, and here she was advocating that I spend that same money on my date’s food and drink. I was shocked that such a woman, one who had met many foreigners, had foreign boyfriends, is well-educated and lives in the capitol city could be so conservative and traditional.

Yet I’m sure when it comes to women’s rights, her ideas are much more modern, less traditional, and at least somewhat up to step with the most current ideas related to women’s rights.

Personally, I don’t see any compelling reason why a man should have to pay for a woman on any dates that they go on, if its pretty clear that both of them wanted to go.  The expectation that they will is a continuing burden on men, and leads to numerous uncomfortable situations, when the man knows that he is expected to do so, but perhaps does not want to. Its difficult to discuss such a thing when you hardly know someone, and are going out with them for the first time.

Sometimes it seems that women are using controlling words and ideas to try to manipulate men into paying for them. For example, a woman I know recently came to meet me, then called and invited her friend to meet us.  The two of them proceeded to order dinner. In the middle of their dinner, they started to talk about “stinginess” and asked me if I am “stingy”. Was it just pure conversation, or an attempt to manipulate me into paying for their dinner? (This is an even more annoying habit- not only must the man pay for the woman he is dating, but he also must pay for any friends that she invites to go out together with them!) Other than that seeming attempt at manipulation, it was fun though.

Women in this country seem to think that its important to get men to pay for them. But their criteria in judging men seems to be warped. They focus so much on getting the man’s money, while disregarding other factors, such as the person’s character or intelligence, even appearance. In the end will they choose an unattractive, boring, man who may sleep around with other women (who he also paid for), simply because he was willing to go along with this tradition?

Personally I think cultures should encourage men to be more fiscally responsible, and not waste money. Women are often credited (in developing countries at least) with being more responsible with their money, saving it for their family, while men are accused of being irresponsible and wasteful. In Grameen Bank’s microfinance projects, they claim that they loan money only to women, because women are responsible with the money, while men waste the money on “wine, women, and song.” Yet I wonder if, among the women who received loans from Grameen Bank, some of them are single women, who had various things paid for by men, while they saved their money and successfully paid back the micro- loan to Grameen?

Another objection I have comes from the underlying meaning of the event: it basically implies that a man is not worth meeting or spending time with, unless he pays the woman to be there. It is debasing to men’s dignity, since the implication is that the woman would not go out if he didn’t pay- what does this say about the value of that man, if he is not worth meeting without him putting up some money? What an abject and debasing condition!

Personally, I think that this tradition should at the very least, be reduced.  Women should pay for themselves at least part of the time.   I don’t claim that men face more disadvantages than women, but this is one area where women fare better than men, in terms of gender roles. Women seem to have little problem accepting women’s rights, International Women’s Day, etc., and celebrate these things enthusiastically- after all it’s in their benefit. But when it comes to changing their attitudes about something which benefits them- such as traditions of men paying for or buying things for women- well, those attitudes die harder (at least for some women).

Men should think critically about this and question it. When necessary they should just bring this issue out in the open and explain that they think costs should be shared- perhaps in proportion to the relative wealth of the two individuals. Not discussing it favors the conservative, old, stodgy traditions.

Of course, there will always be some man who will willfully pay up everything, buy endless gifts, etc., because he thinks somehow he will get something out of it. And some women will be impressed by this. But then those women will get a man who perhaps has little else to offer, and those men will get a woman who perhaps cares more about his money than she does about him.

Anyway, perhaps I am taking this too seriously. Perhaps I am totally wrong. I’d like to invite anyone reading this to comment- I’m curious what other people think about it!

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Responses

  1. I feel like when a man pays that he might be willing to take care of me in the future, if things go that way. Eventually maybe date two or three, depending on my financial situation I might either pay for my food or his too, but still men need to pay the first date. Liked your post too

  2. Frances thanks for your comment. But I think you have it in the reverse order.

    If you want to determine whether a man is able to take care of you, you should find out about his savings, his work, education, etc. If you expect a man to indicate that he is not only able, but also willing to take care of you, then I would say that is not really fair to expect a man to show on a first or even second date. Most men probably do not know on a first date if they would be willing to support a woman, because he doesn’t even know her! That’s asking a lot of commitment from a man from a very early stage.

    If men only asked women out on a date, that they ALREADY KNOW that they are willing to support, then probably very few people would be willing to go out on a date.

    Also, you are probably mis-reading what this means. Its not a commitment to take care of you in the future, its just something that the man is forced or conditioned to do, if he wants to go out with that woman. He may have no intention of taking care of her in the future- in fact he may be after something quite different. ; )

    Personally, I think that if the purpose of dating is to get to know different people to see if you are compatible with them, then the idea would be to have a fairly large number of dates. So they should be affordable and they should be paid for fairly (i.e. equitably). But if men always have to pay, then they will ask fewer women out on dates because they can’t afford it. And if men always pay, there is no incentive for a woman to keep it affordable since she’s not paying anything anyway. In fact, some unethical women may deliberately exploit the situation to get as much as possible, even though they have no interest in that man.

    You provide only one reason why you think a man should pay for the date, but then conclude “still men need to pay the first date.” Please, you must give more reason than that. This just shows again how women promote this tradition, which benefits them, without really giving it any thought.

    Of course this is all without even questioning your premise, which is that “a man should be willing to take care of me”…Why should you not take care of him? Again, you are relying on a traditional assumption about who is responsible for whom (at least monetarily).

    It might be good to change the way of thinking to the concept that “two people will take care of each other.” In which case both people would be responsible to show the other their willingness to take care of each other on a date.

  3. I think man don’t need to pay for the food or drink in the first date. I could not accept it, if man has to pay anything for a woman. beside the woman is only friend and just get to know each other first. If the man willing to pay that’s no problem.

    I think it was very bad, when someone you knew, than invited you and her friends to go to the restaurant for eating, than asked the man to pay for all the bill.

    As a woman, i am shy if man has to pay for everything for a woman. Wake up!!! Don’t always depend on man. How came the man could respect you if only money and money on your mind.

    • Erni,

      Thanks for your comment and its nice to hear at least someone agrees with me!

      I agree with you that on a first date the two people are just getting to know each other, which is why I think its unfair for the man to have to put up a lot of money before-hand. First, he doesn’t even know if he is interested in that woman, and second, even if he is interested, she may not be interested in him.

      Plus having the man pay for everything encourages the woman to be financially irresponsible, attempting to get more and more things on these dates, since she doesn’t have to pay for it anyway. The man can be manipulated to feel that he is “cheap” or “stingy” if he doesn’t go along with it, which is not a very nice feeling, I can assure you.

      Personally I think that women in general are far too materialistic and focused on money anyway. I think that women prioritize money far too much when they choose a partner. This can sometimes result in unhappy relationships, as other factors, such as personality and compatibility, are disregarded.

      Since the women I’m referring to in my post are from developing countries, often time they spent their life wishing that they could have more money, to have an easier life, etc. But they have not yet realized that money alone will not make them happy…

  4. What you need to realize if you ever want to get a quality girl who will want to be with you and maybe have your children someday, is your have missed the entire point. Men and women ARE different wether you like it or not. The women who seem perfectly okay with paying, usually are not. And sometimes they have low self esteem. Because any women with self esteem knows that when a man is truly attracted to her, he will pay no questions or games involved. Men want a woman who is attractive, it fuels their desire for them. Well women aren’t motivated that way. We are motivated by a man who cherishes us and wants to take care of us. Cinderella was a popular story for a a reason. There are certain facts women hate about men, but they go along with them anyway. I guarantee if you take your date out for an icecream or other inexpensive place, she will be more impressed than taking her somewhere expensive and asking her to chip in.

    • A woman loves a man who can take care of them. I think its very natural and its the way it should be. If a woman tells you she doesnt need a man and she can take care of herself. she is lieing. She might be able to take care of herself, but a woman loves a man who takes care. It makes us feel safe and secure. I have heard men say so many times how woman dont respect men anymore. Well, its because men have given up the role to take care of there woman. Its what draws us to you. Its the way God intended.. People have gotten to caught up in this “my man is my best freind, and we are equal and all that. Women dont want you to be your friend. They want you to be there MAN.. To cherish and take care of them. To stop letting us run over you and push you around. We miss the men of yesterday and im sure you miss the woman of yesterday. The woman needs to stop acting like men and allure our men. Woman want to be beautiful and loved. If we have those two things we would be happier. That is a fact in a survey that i read. Very few said successful. Loved, cherished, and beautiful. What happened to our men who want to take care of our women? i really believe the divorce rate is the way it is because women have learned to take care of ourselves. i know so many people are going to be pissed about that statement, but its so true. I know you men dont want to believe it, but women love men who can take care of them. But men love women who are beautiful.. so,we have a tough job too..

  5. Lisa,

    Thanks again for your comment! Its hard to have people disagree with you, but welcome the discussion nevertheless. I did edit out two lines of your comment because I thought they were too personal.

    I don’t think I ever denied anywhere that men and women are different. I drew that conclusion many years ago.

    Well I guess there are different kinds of women who have different ways of thinking about this. I guess if its the kind of woman that always expects the man to pay for everything, especially on the first date, then maybe that’s just not my type of person.

    Again, as I said to the first person who commented, maybe some women are actually in a kind of fairy tale if they think that most men are already “cherishing” them on a first time going out. I doubt that most men are harboring those feelings on a first time going out, and if they are, that may be a sign that they are overly interested at that stage.

    I’m sure there are some women who are more open-minded about the money thing, who would be offended by your statements that they have low self-esteem, and are “not ok”. I wouldn’t make sweeping generalizations like that.

    Anyway, people don’t always agree, but it’s worth discussing! Thanks again for your thoughts and comment.

  6. I have no intention of marrying a selfish woman- Sharing the cost on a first date, is showing respect for each other, it shows you’re both willing to work together for a better future, to take care of each other.
    It was women who asked for equal rights/choice for an education and financial independence and they got that choice over a generation ago, with equal rights/choice for woman comes equal rights/choice for men. Some woman continue to be hypocrite and want the best of both worlds, that to me is the height of arrogance. Any man would have to be an absolute fool to want to date a woman who is so dominating in the relationship, she expects the man to pay and not allow him equal choice to her; I personally would never date a woman who was dominating and controlling to the extend she dictates to me what I should be exploited for her financial benefit.
    My choice is for woman to share respect with me on a first date, not to be a free meal ticket on a first date.
    Men & woman should have equal choice, that is called liberty, freedom… Presently some woman penalize men who don’t pay on a first date, that to me is disrespectful that to be so arrogant you wish to take away my freedom of choice to treat or not to treat, just for being a man- that’s also called discrimination, do woman really want to encourage discrimination and go back to the dark ages.
    Any person in this world who prefers not to have choices in this world over the freedom of choice is only trying to control and dominate others for their own gain.
    How ever I can afford to take the woman out on a first date, I always test the woman on this date. I always offer to pay, and if she offers to pay her share, which is about 20% of the time, I say thank you and tell her what a considerate person she is and I appreciate her not being selfish. I then tell her if she wants to go on a second date, then it is my privilege to treat. But if she does not make an offer, I just pay my share and tell her the rest is hers and I have no intention of seeing her again- even if she looks like a super model, if she is selfish, she is not worth having.

  7. Paul,

    Thanks for your comment and sharing your perspective. A fair number of people have read this post so its good to get a number of different perspectives.

    While I agree with your position on the issue of whether men should always have to pay, I think you may be taking it a little bit too hard. Maybe this situation that you and other men face is leading you to be overly upset and judgmental of women that you go out with.

    As was indicated by some of the women above, they want the man to pay because they feel that it is romantic, and it makes them feel good when a man is willing to make that initial “investment”. As Frances indicates, it makes her feel that this man would take care of her in the future (and that is something that she wants, potentially). And Lisa indicates that she thinks that if a woman pays, she must not really have self respect, and also she thinks that a man paying means he’s really attracted to her. (Which of course is a good feeling).

    So what I gather from this is that’s it’s not always selfishness that makes a woman want the man to pay for her, it can also be ideas that she has, or cognitive beliefs about “the way things should be”. I would suggest that there are probably women who are actually really NOT selfish, but because of strongly held beliefs, or cultural background, think that a man should pay on a date.

    Also, a woman expecting a man to pay on a date may not indicate that person is trying to dominate the other (although that tendency certainly does exist in some women). In fact I would guess that in most cases it does not come from this but comes from, as mentioned above, expectations or strongly held beliefs. Lisa would feel that a man was not really attracted to her if he didn’t pay, and she would feel less esteem. Frances feels more impressed with a man who pays because it implies future security.

    I do think there are some times when the motive is mostly selfish, but certainly not all the time.

    Thinking about this a little more, I realized that there are a lot of things to do when going out that don’t cost a lot of money. There can even be virtually free dates- like going for a walk, or an exhibition opening. And sometimes its even more romantic. If the person I’m going out with enjoys those things, then it could be someone I’m interested in. If they seem to feel uncomfortable or disappointed, then we may not share similar values. The whole dinner date, which is so constructed, has a formal feeling to it which actually makes people more self- conscious.

    Another alternative route to dating comes in situations where a person regularly meets potential partners in daily activities- like in community life, volunteering, work, study, going out, etc. This kind of interaction often makes dating less necessary, at least for people in that social group.

    Dating is still necessary, though, when a person is interested in someone who is outside their social circle, and who that person would not normally meet on a regular basis.

    Paul, I hope it works out, and I agree with you overall that men should not have to pay all the time when going out with a woman. Be careful though not to get overly caught up in the feeling of injustice or discrimination, if it leads to too many negative feelings. It’s always good sometimes to balance out by remembering the opposite side of something.

    Any more thoughts or comments from readers?

  8. Well it comes down to not being fair, I personally earn less than the average woman, so I should not have to pay more than the average woman. Respect is a two way street, there are plenty of men who would love to have a beautiful woman ask them out on a date and for the woman to pay for everything, at least the man would enjoy the feeling of being wanted as opposed to being rejected, but as a man I know I will never get the same privileges, so if woman refuse to meet me half way then it’s simple I don’t want them, I would rather go out with my mates

  9. Paul,

    Yeah I agree with you it really is not fair. Especially as I mentioned when men are being manipulated, as in the case above where a woman I was out with invited her friend to come and meet us, and then started to ask questions like- “are you stingy?” etc.

    Its also true that as a man you are often evaluated based on your income (what else are you good for, right?) Its also true that because men are usually the ones who have to ask women out (it almost never occurs in reverse), that they also have to deal with being rejected, which is also not a nice feeling.

    At the sametime, I think that women face certain disadvantages in dating. For example, if they are really not attractive in some way, maybe no one will ever ask them out. And further, they may feel like they cannot ask a man to go out, because it goes against tradition.

    Even if a woman is attractive, not being able to ask a man out is also a disadvantage. Because she may be asked out, but not by the man that she really likes. And she knows someone she really likes, but she feels she cannot ask him out.

    I agree with you that it is not fair, that’s why we should try to change it! I also think other gender related issues are “up for grabs”, and men should spend more time thinking about them, independent of the “feminist” position.

    In terms of dating, I would recommend trying to meet women through more informal situations which are more casual. It will be more fun and relaxed than a formal date which can be too stiff…

  10. Bonjour Paul,

    Your email from february 14 certainly hits the nail right on the head. No way should a man ever pay for the first date. Never. In fact, from my point of view, this first date should be an opportunity to test the woman, just like women test men. Of course, just like women do, you are not to tell her that she is being tested. This will be our little secret. This first date process should help you weed out the freeloading women as well as the little princesses and the golddiggers. Now to be clear and upfront this going dutch situation should be discussed with your potential date prior to the actual meeting. If she turns you down after knowing you intend to go dutch, that says a lot about her character. You just got rid of a potential freeloader…good. Now assuming she accepts your offer and does go out with you it is quite probable that a second date possibility will be discussed. If that happens, you are not to mention anything regarding who pays what. That will be the beauty of your gesture, as she does not expect it you offer to pay for the whole second date. This will come as a spontaneous and sincere gesture from you. You will do it because you feel like it, because you genuinely like the woman, it will have nothing to do with a tradition that forces you to do it, which renders the gesture meaningless. She will be surprised and delighted to hear that.

    Now another advantage of acting that way is that after the first date, the woman will obviously have talked about the fact that you went dutch with at least five of her best girlfriends. At least 4 of whom will have criticized your gesture to go dutch and recommended to your date to drop you as you will be seen by them as a cheapskate and a jerk. Now by paying for the whole second date, you have proven wrong 4 of her 5 best friends (good thing) and have brought your new date closer to you (again good thing). Again, if she refused the second date you have just gotten rid of a potential free loader / little princess / golddigger.

    Now to answer FrancesLee and a few other women, why on earth should a man be expecting to take care of you? Aren’t you autonomous and can’t you take care of yourself? How would you react if a man was going on a first date with a woman with the idea in mind that he will be testing her to see if she will be able to take care of him in the future? Would that be OK too? Get with the times.

    Again, Paul and Patrick, great post.

    Best,

    Arthur.

    • Arthur,

      Somehow I get the feeling you are joking, and poking fun at that point of view. When I was reading it just now I thought it was funny. The elaborate mechanism and process… If you were serious, excuse me and let me know, I will reply to you seriously.

  11. Bonsoir Paul,

    I was serious in my post. I have already sent you a private email regarding it. I’d appreciate it if anyone on the list would point to anything erroneous in my post.

    Best,

    Arthur

  12. Arthur, thanks for your latest comment and I hope that readers will see your comment for another perspective!

    I’m the one that wrote the original post, Paul is someone who made a comment. I’m not sure if Paul is still following this post.

    Well, my response is that your comment is not erroneous, it’s more a matter of approach, and what a person wants to get out of dating. Is the goal of dating to get to know people and eventually be in a relationship, or is it to test people, to see what they will do?

    In my original post, I did not say that I would never pay when going out. I was objecting to my friend’s claim that men should always pay, that they have a kind of obligation, and what this mentality actually represents about a lack of awareness in that person (and others who think alike). I sometimes do pay the tab when going out, especially if I know that the other person has little money or a small salary (which is more common as I live in a developing country). Generally I don’t go to really expensive places, and if the person I’m going out with is disappointed then they’re probably not a good match for me, since I don’t care too much about money.

    But I wouldn’t focus too much on the “who pays?” question, as a kind of regular test of every single person I go out with. It might be one factor to consider in getting an impression of a person, but on the whole the idea of going out with someone is to get to know them overall as a person, not in a single aspect.

    You also mentioned that “to be clear and upfront this going dutch situation should be discussed with your potential date prior to the actual meeting”- I think this is a little awkward. As I think I said in my original post, this is what makes it difficult to handle this issue, because it is not something that people normally would discuss in advance. Even to discuss it in the first date itself could be difficult.

    Anyway, there are so many different ways to approach it- do whatever works for you Arthur. I agree with you overall that men should not always be expected to pay on a date.

    Do you have any more thoughts?

    Any women reading out there who have some more comments? Agree/disagree?

  13. Bonjour Patrick,

    Ooops, my bad, sorry. I will reply to you then.

    Yes, I do have a few more thouhgts.

    First, as for the goals of dating, actually I think that in the dating context testing is one of the ways to get to know the other person! Now women have used this testing to draw conclusions (sometimes erroneously) about their so called prospect. Men have been standing passively, answering the questions and some times not even aware that they were being tested! I am simply offering now that men should do the same and use the meeting to get to know the other person better. Equality sort of thing. Of course they will also be entitled to draw conclusions about the woman depending on her answers!

    As for who pays, north american women have this almost innate syndrome of entitlement. They think they deserve this, that and the other thing. Many women do what I call double dipping. This is very very common in north america. Many women claim to be modern, autonomous, self-sufficient, etc, etc. Suddently when WHEN IT SUITS THEM they claim to be old fashioned…and expect men to pay (cause they deserve it…), be chivalrous, etc, etc. My point is that women do not deserve anything more than men deserve. I am sure you have seen this comment made by women on a few other sites; oh, I guess I am old fashion (meaning I expect the man to pay). Don’t you hate it when, at the end of a meal the woman “needs” to go pee just as the check arrives? Equally bad in my book when some women make that very lame and cheap attempt at paying by half-heartedly reaching for their purse

    Please consider the following; why is it that a man is considered cheap if he does not pay for a woman’s meal on a date BUT she is not considered cheap if she does not pay for the man’s meal?

    As for the awkwardness of going dutch (of course going dutch does irritate many women’s sense of entitlement!), this may create uneasiness. So? I believe a man ought to have enough self-confidence to make things clear from the beginning. Why not discuss it beforehand? If a potential date turns you down because of it, you probably just got rid of a gold digger, that is a good thing. Next please!

    Now, of course comments are welcome. However women’s are somewhat predictable.

    Sorry if my english is not perfect. I hope all is somewhat understandable but consider the fact that it is my second language.

    Best,

    Arthur.

  14. Arthur,

    Thanks again for your contribution and forgive me my delay in writing to you- was on holiday last week. Also your writing is quite good and I actually thought you are a native speaker of English.

    It does seem to be true that in some cases women expect to be treated equally, and then in other cases expect to get special treatment. I can’t say however, how significant this is and whether it really exists in a wide range of situations or in a fairly narrow range. For example, if it is just that they expect men to pay on the first few dates and also maybe to hold the door for them, then it is not really that significant in the overall experience of being a human being. But if it goes much more beyond this, then it may be significant. I’d have to hear more about the various types of incidents or behaviors that supposedly are expected of special treatment by women, in order to make a better analysis.

    As for “testing”, where did you get the impression that women often test men on dates? But again, if it works for you and it feels right, then go for it.

    I also agree with you that it is not fair that men are considered cheap if they don’t pay for a woman’s meal on a date, but that women are not considered cheap if they don’t pay for a man’s meal on a date. It may be too optimistic to expect that women will ever be considered cheap in this scenario, but it may be possible to change attitudes to such a degree that men will no longer be considered cheap in this situation.

    As for discussing beforehand that you intend to go “dutch”, I still probably would shy away from this, but if it works for you then probably it is the right thing to do for you. I also don’t think that women’s responses are necessarily “predictable”. In my experience at least some women are quite open- minded on gender related issues and are willing to recognize it and acknowledge it when something is to men’s disadvantage. Others, however, are not always so flexible. But it really depends on the person and there is a lot of diversity out there.

    You could also consider other gender related issues, other than just dating. For the last several years I’ve been saying that the gender debate is largely controlled by women, and this is often because men have not spent any time really investigating and/or developing their own opinions about gender issues. Or they just slavishly go along with whatever the feminist perspective is. I have heard women with a feminist perspective make some pretty outlandish suggestions over the years, so I think it is important for men to develop their own perspective on these issues, at least as a matter of self- defense.

    On the other hand, men should seek to be fair in the debate. It would be unfair, for example, to deny the seriousness of domestic violence against women, or rape, or to deny that there is ever discrimination against women. Men should seek to treat gender issues fairly, even though they may not agree with everything that some women claim/ suggest.

    You could also have a look at a few other blog posts on gender which I have written for this blog, including:

    Article Discusses Trafficking of Men http://interissueforum.wordpress.com/2009/10/03/article-discusses-trafficking-of-men/

    Resist Gender Bigotry http://interissueforum.wordpress.com/2008/05/01/resist-gender-bigotry/

    Good luck Arthur and do leave more comments if you wish. Also, please feel welcome to send an e mail to the address listed on the “About” page if you’d like to have a discussion that is not viewable.

  15. I have always made more than most men and have always in the past insisted on going dutch. However, I have changed my postion lately.

    This is because I know men like me with my hair, nails, clothes, perfume, jewelry, accessories and expensive skin treatments. I am extremely sought after by men and I have spent many many many more times the money on providing myself and men with the pleasure of my appearance which makes so many of them want to date me.

    A free dinner is not something I need, never have. But it does show a man has half a clue and is willing to respect the effort I have put in to pleasing him and does not intend to FREELOAD off me – let me do all the work and expense of providing the attraction factor in the relationship while barely bothers to suck his tummy in.

    Men need to step up in the physical appearance effort to provide women with what we want just as much as you. Go to the gym, get a decent hair cut, take care of your skin, but some flattering clothes, make an effort at good posture. Most men and women are not naturally gorgeous. Most have to work at it and it costs. I have never believed it is a woman’s job to deliver sexiness and a mans to enjoy it without making any effort other than a shower and a shave to repay it. Keep your money after the first date – but puhlease – put in more effort to visually please ME so that I don’t feel that you are FREELOADING on my effort to please YOU.

    • Andrea, Thanks for your comments and I will reply to them slowly.

      Well it’s good to hear that you earn a lot of money and that you are extremely sought after by men.

      As for your expenses on beauty, I would just say that I don’t think it is actually necessary for women to spend a lot on these things. I think women often do not realize that men do not necessarily like a lot of make-up and an overdone appearance that much. I often observed that dressing up is more of a women’s thing, more for their own sense of status, including in relation to other women. A truly attractive woman (in a physical way) will often shine through with relatively simple clothes, which did not cost that much (although of course it depends on the type of clothes- sweatpants will not look that nice compared to an inexpensive dress or skirt). For a woman with nice skin and a nice appearance, only maybe a bit of eyeliner or mascara is really necessary- in fact using makeup on the skin over the long term seems to make women’s skin look worse. I personally don’t wear any jewelry as a rule, so I don’t even look for that in a woman, except maybe some earrings, which are especially for women and look nice.

      While I understand that you spend a lot of time on your appearance, the man bears the psychological burden of being responsible to ask the woman out, deciding where to go, etc. You may not realize how in some cases this is also a drag or a burden on the man, in terms of anxiety or uncertainty.

      I think it’s interesting that you consider it freeloading if a man doesn’t pay for your dinner, which you view as a compensation for your expenses on clothes, make-up, etc. But the man may not have wanted or expected these things. So you want to force him to pay for something that he may not even have wanted.

      Considering that you apparently make a lot of money, but refuse to go out on a date “dutch”, makes me think that you are kind of cheap.

      As for your final comment that men should make more effort in their appearance, I respect your comment and I think women have the right to demand that. I’m not sure if that message is getting through, though, to men, because I think men still generally think women are mostly looking for high income (money) and social status in a man. In terms of “making an effort”, I think most men from a very young age are socialized and know that income and a good job, or some other form of high social status, are important factors in their desirability to women, and so they put a lot of their effort into that. While of course a handsome man is attractive to women, it is less important in men’s attractiveness (generally), than beauty is in women’s attractiveness.

      Personally, after reading your other comments on the post “Resist Gender Bigotry”, I have serious doubts about whether you will be successful in your dating ventures. I get the feeling that while men may be initially attracted to you, your attitude about men needing to pay for you, as well as your underlying belief that women are superior, will eventually come through to the other person and they will not really like you. Or you may get into a relationship with someone, but your belief in the superiority of women will eventually damage it, and possibly lead to its end. I am guessing that your belief in the superiority of women is also associated with other behaviors and parts of your personality, which may also be unattractive. In the end, no matter how beautiful a woman is, or how successful, a man must like a woman and enjoy being around her for a relationship with her to work. I could be totally wrong though and you may be ultimately successful despite the obstacles I perceive.

      Again, thanks for your comment, and I hope you will reconsider your decision to always demand that a man should pay everything for you on a date. You might also consider what I said about spending a lot on your appearance, and just going for a more natural look, relaxed look. If you really are attractive and well sought after, I’m sure you will still have a lot of men asking you out- maybe even more.

  16. Bonsoir Patrick,

    Thanks for the remark. Actually I do sometimes have the impression that my written english does look like translated french. However I seem to be able to get my point across clearly enough.

    Now, in my opinion, it is clear that the north american context is such that women have this acute sense of self entitlement therefore expect to receive things just because they are women. No question for me. They claim to be old fashioned…when it suits them only.

    As for testing, it is well documented on the web (for what it’s worth!) that women do it on dates. My personal experience also confirms this. I am simply advocating that men ought to also use dates to test their prospective mate.

    Changing attitudes regarding the man being cheap because he does not pay for the woman will not happen anytime soon. It certainly would require that men have enough self confidence to make it clear from the beginning to the woman. It would also require a mass movement by men, regardless of women’s opinion. It is not only a matter of not being so significant in the overall experience of being a human being, there is also a matter of principle involved. Things are either equal or they are not. Women do have a significant difficulty to abandon that old tradition of men being expected to pay just because…they are men! Witness the previous post by andrea! Basically she expects men to pay for her personal hygiene, clothing and accessories, no less! She even states to justify men paying that she is “providing myself and men with the pleasure of my appearance”. If that is not based on an acute sense of self entitlement, then what is? She trades her appearance for a meal!

    As for women’s response predictability, just see andrea’s post. It represents perfectly what is to be expected from a western woman. Just typical. It seems that only women provide the attraction factor according to her! Enough said.

    There are many gender related issues that need to be adressed by men. These include women’s violence against men and children. For example, did you know that, according to the US government statistic office (or whatever it is called, I am not american) the majority of violent acts perpetrated against children were done by…women. Feminists have a tough time with this fact. Regarding gender issues, you may want to check out Tom Leykis on you tube. He does make a significant contribution about men’s point of view regarding gender issues. I will check the references you posted for me.

    If you are interested in gender discrimination, check out the various family courts decisions and family laws. You will witness blatant discrimination against…men. Women do not have the victim monopoly. They just pretend to.

    Till next time, all the best.

    Arthur

  17. Arthur, I guess you haven’t seen Andrea’s comment on my other blog post “Resist Gender Bigotry”!

    By the way, those links were to other posts on this blog, not to external websites.

    I’ll reply more in due time…

  18. OK…For all of you that are debating this issue… I am a gay male and when going out with friends or sig other, we take turns paying the bill. Is there a “status quo” we need to follow as well?

    • Levi,

      Fortunately for you, you have escaped the burden of being obligated to pay for someone purely based on gender. Good for you!

      Any other replies to Levi’s comment?

  19. I have found one thing to be true. When a man complains that he has to pay for date it is because his financial situation is not good. This is a common theme in the responses to this post so far. SO GET REAL GUYS!!!!!!

    Women have the children and so yes they do want to see if a man can take care of them for the times when they are not working and having the baby. T

    • This is just too good to be true. So, Margaret, when on a date with a woman the man should be paying just in case he might someday be having children with that woman? Here is a news bulletin for you, real women are independent and therefore pay their own meals. Men do not have to go along with women’s little opportunistic tests (which, for some, really are rationalisations for being cheapskates and wanting a free meal). On a larger note, men do not have to (and should not) let themselves be cornered by women into being providers. Men will choose for themselves whichever role they see fit which includes not having children and/or not paying for a stranger’s meal.

      By the way if men have to prove on the first date that the can provide for the woman if/when she gets pregnant, what do women have to prove to those men on the first date…

      Best,

      Arthur

      • This is not about babies and who is the provider. You have misread what I have written. Women like to see that the guy is interested and if he does pay for the first date this dos say something about his level of interest and if he is thinking this may be worth taking a step further. I have found this to be true with all the dates I have been on.

        Just for the record I earn a very high income and I have found that men do not like this – when they find out they are threatened and some have told me this to my face. I always pay for myself and when in a relationship do end up paying for the man as well. If he needs help I help him out. I pay for the groceries and bills etc.

        Despite this there is no equality. As well as pulling my weight with money and also helping out the man with money I am also expected to do all the housework and cook the meals etc and I found found that men just won’t do any of this adn they refuse to do so. I am also yet to have a man help me out with money when times do get tough for me.

        Doesn’t really make it worth while for me to have a relationship as it just means i am running around for someone else as well as having to do my own stuff.

  20. Bonsoir Margaret,

    Misread you? Hmmm. See your last paragraph about women having children etc. etc. Clearly you corner men into being provider while the woman stays at home.

    Regardless, I don’t know what country/city you are from but in my neck of the woods (I’m in Montreal) men love to see women pay their share on a date. As for paying for the whole date, women are still way behind men in this regard and do have a long way to go. Old habits and privileges die hard. Most women are not women enough regarding this idea of equality. Men love to be wined and dined, who does not? I have never met a man who disliked that his significant other was a higher earner. I certainly do believe what you say but do not know any such man. As for the selfish men you have relations with, what attracts you to them? Why do you choose such men? If you do not like their behaviour, kick them to the curb, simple.

    Just for a kick, let’s rephrase the third sentence of your first paragraph; men like to see that the girl is interested and if she does pay for the first date this does say something about her level of interest and if she is thinking this may be worth taking a step further. See, the reason you are giving can work both ways. There is no valid reason for men to be the only ones paying for the first date. None. See my previous post regarding the testing men can do to weed out the golddiggers.

    By the way, I see that you have not adressed the question in my last paragraph. Care to comment? Men pay for date and women bring…

    Best,

    Arthur

    • Arthur,

      I have already stated that I pay for myself and also for the man I am having a relationship with so what you are saying “Clearly you corner men into being provider while the woman stays at home” is not true as I have already written that I work and earn a high income and always pay for myself – is there some reason you are ignoring this?

      I have always worked even when I had a baby I worked up to when the baby was born and saved money so I could pay my expensee while I was off work – so he never paid for me.

      I do kick these selfish men you refer to in the kerb. It appears that they like the fact I have money and that is why they go out with me and I end up paying for them.

      If they want to go halves on the first date I do accept that and pay. My orginal comment is that I have found that most woman do want the man to pay on the first date as they see this as some form of deeper interest. If men don’t want to pay for me on the first date I am OK with that. I have found though that they usally don’t want second date if they did not pay for the first date – this has been my experience. That’s OK too as they are not interested so why go any further.

  21. Dear Margaret (T) and Arthur,

    Margaret thank you so much for your comment and welcome back Arthur as well. I’m glad we can discuss this issue here, since it does not seem to be being discussed in many other places.

    Margaret, I see you are being reasonable and have shared with readers some important aspects of your own experience, which I’d like to address. First though, let me respond to your initial statement “I have found one thing to be true. When a man complains that he has to pay for date it is because his financial situation is not good. This is a common theme in the responses to this post so far. SO GET REAL GUYS”

    What I sense in your statement is an effort to essentially shame men if their financial situation is not good. The “subscript” to your statement is:” Ha ha, I know why you men complain about paying for dates. Its because you are actually losers who don’t have any money, and therefore you really are hardly worth going out with to begin with.” “Get real!” means that men should get their acts together and start earning more so that they can pay for dates and be worthwhile providers.

    We rarely analyze male gender roles/ gender pressures on men, but your statement is playing into the male gender role about what a good man is, what a man should and must do, etc.

    Your statement repeats the long and often implied/repeated valuation of men primarily for their earning potential. You basically are reducing men’s value for any other purpose (character?) and focusing on men’s earning potential. It seems to say- if you have economic problems and you are unwilling to pay for my date, then basically you are almost a worthless man…

    I want to challenge the long held gender ideology which tries to equate men’s value with their earning ability. And I want to assert men’s freedom to be valued for other reasons, such as their character, appearance, intelligence, faithfulness, non- marketable skills, etc.

    Margaret, I’m sure you also value those other things as well, but in your comment you are playing into and reinforcing the value of men only for their money.

    You also mention that women have children, and so women want to see on a date if a man can care for her, also as a measure of the man’s level of interest in her. I’m sure you are aware of some flaws in this, but let me point out further:
    – the fact that a man pays on a date does not mean he is financially secure- he may be in debt already, paying using a credit card, etc. etc., because either- he is not good at managing his own money, or he feels obligated or has been socialized to believe he must pay for the woman (even though he cannot really afford it.)
    -the fact that a man pays on a date does not mean he will eventually provide for the woman when she is pregnant- There have been many cases of men refusing to provide for their biological children after a breakup. Presumably some of those men paid on the first date (probably most of them).
    -The fact that a man does not pay on the first date means he is economically unsound- not necessarily. He may just feel he shouldn’t have to, out of principle and self respect. Or he may feel that it is casual dating, he’s not really sure if he’s interested in that woman (but wants to find out more), so why should he pay?
    -The fact that a man does not pay on the first date does not mean that he would be unwilling to support his wife/ girlfriend in the case of pregnancy- many men, when faced with the prospect of being responsible for a child or wife, work harder and attempt to improve their career, or find a better job to adjust.
    -Many men, who pay or don’t pay- may not be interested in having children at all. And presumably many women who expect men to pay, also are not really interested in having children.

    What I get from your comment, and ultimately from the whole dating scene, is that men have to PROVE themselves on the first date to the woman. But there is no requirement on the woman in the date to prove anything about herself. Its like the man is the subject and the woman is the judge.

    If we follow the typical gender role, a man must ask the woman out himself (which is part of the ideology that he must pay as well). For this, he may get rejected, which women may think is no big deal, but I think it can actually really affect a man’s psyche, especially if he is frequently refused for some reason. Then he must also prove himself on the date (that he would be a good earner/ provider) and he must graciously agree to pay for everything, even if the woman has already decided she’s not interested (i.e. a waste of money on his part).

    I truly think that dating culture is to men’s disadvantage and women’s advantage. But at the same time, I also STRONGLY support women having the right to ask a man out if they want, and this should be seen as totally normal and acceptable. Women should have the right to choose who they would like to see as well (and not wait endlessly for her favorite to call).

    One of the effects of the gender role in which men are valued primarily for their money is that men often seek to go into high earning roles- business, law, etc., while women have much more freedom and can choose an occupation which they really like. They may choose a high earning occupation or a low earning one, and it will have little effect on her “desirability”. We can see the difference reflected in the courses which men choose and women choose to study at University.

    Well, I took more the “women’s path”, and I chose my career based on what I really wanted to do- to impact social change. Eventually this led to me going into non-profit work (often a woman’s profession). As a result, I don’t have a lot of money. But I am also an intelligent, kind person who has a lot of awareness of society and positive, altruistic motives. But according to the male gender role, I have little value because I don’t earn much money.

    Its that value that I challenge and that I reject.

    I also want to point out that women in developed countries have made a lot of progress, have improved their situation at work, have become more competitive, and gotten more and more education. As a result, they have improved their careers and gotten more money as a result. Its not surprising, then, that some men have lost out- more competitive women have gotten their jobs and some men are left lower on the ladder. If we compare the USA in say, 1960, men were mostly competing only with other men for professional jobs. Now, in 2011, men are competing with men and women both. Or basically twice as many people.

    Its just not realistic any more that every woman will be able to find a man who earns more than they do. In fact, I predict in the near future, about half of women won’t be able to find a man who earns more than they do. If they continue to stubbornly persist in trying to find a man who earns more, they will be disappointed and frustrated.

    Its also not fair to continue to expect men to try to earn more than women, when it really is just not possible for all men to do that in today’s work environment.

    So on the basis that men should not be valued solely on their current income potential, and should have the freedom to choose their career according TO THEIR REAL INTEREST, as opposed to the demand to earn money (like a machine), I reject your argument that a man should be evaluated only on whether or not he pays for a woman’s date.

  22. You really need toread what I have written properly. I have already written “If they want to go halves on the first date I do accept that and pay. My orginal comment is that I have found that most women do want the man to pay on the first date as they see this as some form of deeper interest. If men don’t want to pay for me on the first date I am OK with that. I have found though that they usually don’t want second date if they did not pay for the first date – this has been my experience. That’s OK too as they are not interested so why go any further.”

    I was writing what other women have told me and this is not my attitide that I go on a date to find a man to look after me. With the men I have dated I found that when they do want to go halves or have me pay it is because they have some money issues. This is OK as I am happy to pay. I do not judge them for this. I don’t date men based on their social status or income.

    Thus your comment “I reject your argument that a man should be evaluated only on whether or not he pays for a woman’s date” is not correct as I have not stated this.

    You also seem to ignore what has happened to me with men. This whole thing of who pays can also go badly for women with the men wanting them to pay more than their share. Is there some reason you ignore what I have written.

  23. Margaret, I also want to address your personal notes.

    You mention that you earn a great deal of money, and you also mention that if a man doesn’t want to pay, its OK for you. You also mention that you have had several partners who earn less than you.

    So what I get is that, even though you are in favor of men paying and being the better earner in principle, in practice you don’t always follow that. So that’s good to see that you are being practical.

    As for men saying that they feel uncomfortable with your earning more, I’m not surprised some men feel that way. Arthur says he doesn’t know anyone like that, but I suspect there are at least some. (This would be a good thing to do a little empirical research on).

    Its not surprising that some men feel that way- after all society has long been teaching them, directly and indirectly, that men are to be valued because they earn money and are economic providers- and that they have little other value besides. So if suddenly your whole “raison d’etre”, is undermined by a female partner who makes more than you, you may just feel like “what use am I to this woman anyway?” “What real value do I have to contribute to this relationship?”, he may privately (even subconsciously) think. In fact, men probably seek lower income women precisely so that they can feel useful and that they have a real important role to play in that relationship.

    It might help if you really emphasize to him that its not only money that you care about, that other traits are important as well, that other actions (which are not paid for, such as fathering/ parenting, being a compassionate and supportive partner, etc.) are also important as well. You might also emphasize that even though he doesn’t earn as much as you, that you still appreciate his contribution, and that it does help make a more economically sound household.

    I’ve never been in a relationship with a woman who earned a lot more than me, so I cant say for sure how I would feel in that case. But from my experience, women are usually pretty sensitive to men’s pride, and don’t necessarily treat them any worse for not having truckloads of money. As long as the woman respects the man and doesn’t use her higher income as a means of control, it seems like it could work out. But it might take some adjustment on both people’s part.

    As for the problem with them helping around the house/apartment, I’m a little bit surprised. Are you aware that several recent studies have actually shown that men do MORE work than women in some developed countries? (such as the Netherlands and Canada). This is when all kinds of work (including housework) is counted.

    See this article about Catherine Hakim’s research:

    http://www.chicagodesitalk.com/NewsIndiaTimes/20100805/5058944950805684878.htm

    The UN Development Report 2004, also showed that men in some developed countries do more work (although the data for this report is a little old, and men may be working even more now). See page 233 of the report:

    http://hdr.undp.org/en/media/hdr04_complete.pdf

    It seems strange that the men in your life are not helping out. I wonder if it is not some kind of way of getting “revenge” that you earn more. Sort of like, “well you earn more than me, which I’m not really happy about, so now you’re going to have to do the housework as well.” Like an expression of resentment. But I don’t know, this is just speculation.

    One thing I have often thought about men, women and housework: men and women seem to have different standards of cleanliness, and how much they care about it. Personally, I can be a little lazy about keeping my house clean, and I’d rather have an extra half hour of sleep than a perfectly clean house. Women like to have a very clean house, and expect men to help them achieve that goal.

    My solution is for the couple to consider hiring someone to do household work a few days a week. It seems that highly professional couples who earn a lot are just wasting their time on household chores. The investment to hire someone to save time for two hard-working people might be worth it. After all, what is that extra income for, anyway? If you work hard at your job, and then have no free time because of a heavy household labor burden, what’s the point of life anyway? If people never have any free time to enjoy life, what’s the use?

    But then, this idea may not be realistic due to high labor costs.

    Anyway, I wish you the best and hope you will find someone that is a good match for you. I don’t think your high income should be much of an obstacle. I just wish you would think more critically about your conceptions of the male gender role.

    Send more comments if you like…

  24. I don’t have any conceptions of the male gender role. This should be clear from my response. Again you are writing things that I have not written anywhere.

  25. You have written:
    It might help if you really emphasize to him that its not only money that you care about, that other traits are important as well, that other actions (which are not paid for, such as fathering/ parenting, being a compassionate and supportive partner, etc.) are also important as well. You might also emphasize that even though he doesn’t earn as much as you, that you still appreciate his contribution, and that it does help make a more economically sound household.

    Again you are not reading what I have written. I pay and I do not judge or devalue men for this. I do let them know I value them etc etc. You are making assumptions about me that are not correct. The issue is they want me to pay more than them for everything and also be the housemaid. They do not tell me how much they value me either. I am a mother and this is not paid either and they do not look after my child or be a father to my child either becuase they do not want to. One man I went out wanted me to look after his child as well as pay for his child and he did not want to know anything about my child.

    What you are missing here is that things are just as tough for women as men. Women also get the rough end of things just like men do.

    There are still lots of things to work out for “equality.” I do get tired of single fathers being seen as heroes doing something special while I am a “single mother” whom other men have told me that I am a burden to other men and the government, which I am not. My comments so far on these posts have indicated this to be otherwise.

    I still do have hope that I will find a suitable partner. However, given that there is such prejudice against single mothers, and even single mothers who are divorced like myself, I decided a little while ago to remain single. There are also issues with me earning more than most men and you have acknowledged some of the reasons why this may be so. Given all this, I am having rest from dating and seeing any men and just running my business now and learning to be happy on my own with my child.

    When finally do get things right, which will be a while yet, men and women will not be judged on what they earn, their social status, whether are single parents and a whole lot more other things.

    • Ok, well so you say that you do let your partners know that you value them etc., but that it still does not work out. Actually, I did not misunderstand you. I was just trying to be helpful and offer suggestions of what could help. Because I thought I might have some ideas that could help. But you say that did not help either.

      As for the other things you mentioned, I agree with you it sounds like you got a bad deal. It sounds unfair for them to expect you to pay for everything, you make more money, and you do the housework, they also want you to take care of their kids, and they don’t want to help take care of your kids. That does sound pretty bad and unfortunate.

      And I also agree with you that it is not only men who get a bad deal- sometimes women also get a bad deal. It can be rough for both groups. In fact most people would say women have it much much worse. I don’t necessarily agree 100%, but there is some truth to that.

      I was just focusing on the issue of dating, which I think is something that is more to men’s disadvantage. On my blog I usually focus on men’s issues because I feel that the media totally ignore men’s issues. But at the same time, I also recognize the challenges that women face. I just don’t write about them because I feel that the international media, the government, and the multi-billion dollar NGO-UN complex are already publicizing women’s issues quite well.

      But I definitely recognize at least some of the challenges that women face.

      It sounds like you got an especially bad deal. I’m sorry to hear that. I also hope you will find a suitable partner- when you are ready.

      And you’re right- there is still a long way to go before everyone will be treated fairly!

      Its good to have discussions like this so people can get a better idea of different people’s experiences, put it all in perspective, and come to a better understanding of their fellow human beings!

  26. Margaret, in reply to your comment earlier today:

    Ok, so excuse me if you feel I have not understood your comments. It seems like you are proposing two arguments at the same time. On the one hand, you say that you don’t care that much about men not paying for the whole date, and also that you don’t judge men based on their economic success.

    So in that sense, I support you, and I agree with you.

    On the other hand, your original comment was that if men don’t want to pay, its because they don’t have much money, and you further exhort men to “get real”, which to me implied that they should get real about earning more money, and then demonstrate that when they are on a date. You also seem to defend the practice of men paying because women need men to demonstrate that they could support the woman when she is pregnant.

    So it seems you are being a little contradictory. If your statement that you don’t care whether men pay or not is how you really feel, then I would expect you to come out and support the basic premise of my original post, not defend the logic of other women who still expect men to pay.

    Maybe you can clarify the difference between your original comment and some of the things you have written more recently?

    You also wrote that: “I don’t have any conceptions of the male gender role. This should be clear from my response. Again you are writing things that I have not written anywhere.”

    Ok, so that’s fine. Then we are basically in agreement.

    It seems your point in your original comment is that: women like men to pay on dates because they think this means that the man is more interested.

    I guess my reply would be that- should men really be expected to show that much interest on a first date? Why is a man expected at that stage to demonstrate that he is really interested? What if he perceives it as being a fairly casual date, and he is just dating a few different women to find a good match?

    I’d also like to point out that the “politics of interest” are in women’s favor. Women are not expected to show their interest on a first date by paying- but men are. All a woman has to do is show up. Men have to ask the women out, show up to the date, and pay for it. Actually I find it kind of degrading to men’s value because, the woman is valued just for her presence, but the man is only valued if he shows up for the date AND he pays for it. Sort of like the woman is a guest of honor who the man has to pay just to even show up.

    All I can say is, for once in my life, I would like to be given such value by a woman that she would want to go out on a date with me even if I didn’t pay for all of it! Or just once, that I would be of such value that a woman would actually pay for everything! (this did actually happen to me once recently).

    But unfortunately, when it comes to dating at least, men are devalued to the point that they are only of value when they show up ready to pay for everything as well.

    I am speaking in general here, not directly to you, because you have already indicated that you do sometimes share the cost on a date, or even pay all yourself.

    So to conclude- do you agree more with your female friends who think that men should pay on dates because that is expressing a serious interest/ demonstrating financial ability? Or do you agree more with your personal practice of sometimes paying part/all depending on the situation?

    It seems like you are saying that even though you often pay part/all on your dates, that you still think their is a good logic behind men paying (i.e. you agree with your women friends to some degree). Am I understanding you correctly now?

  27. Bonjour all,

    A couple of ponts I’d like to adress regarding the above exchange.

    Of course Magaret I believe you when you write about your experiences with men. What I maintain is that where I live the men I know would be pleased to be in a relationship where the woman would be earning a salary higher than theirs. For me it would not be an issue if, let’s say, I earned 100,000 and my S.O. was earning double.

    Aaaaaaahhhh, as for domestic tasks, it is clear to me that men, generally, do at least as much as women in the house. The fact is simply that they do different things that feminists who do these studies do not take men’s tasks into the equation. Case in point, in the majority of the cases it is men who do heavy lifting, take care of the car (brakes, oil change, etc.), take out the garbage, do the plumbing. In my previous relation it was clear that my S.O. swept the floor or washed the dishes more than I. However she never had to change the brake pads or the fluids on the car or take out the garbage or the recycling bin. It is my experience that men’s contribution to the domestic well being is quite often ignored.

    With all due respect Margaret, in your case the pool of available men is significantly reduced by the fact that you are a single mother. More and more men are now choosing not to take the risk of dating (or go out seriously with) single moms. And in this day and age it makes perfect sense. Of course laws are different in different countries but in the USA and Canada at least a man is liable to be condemned to pay child support, to a single mom after a break up, if the court rules that he has been acting as a father figure EVEN IF THE CHILD IS NOT HIS!!! (you can google this topic if you like) It does happen sometimes and it is totally insane. Why on earth should a man take that risk! Single moms are finding it more and more difficult to find a suitable mate and this is caused in part by feminists who pressured to have these laws passed. Now that men are getting wiser and acting in their own best interest…these laws are hurting…women! Go figure.

    As for paying on the first date, I believe Patrick hit the nail right on the head. Men will not be cornered into being providers and having to prove themselves while women bring nothing to the table, prove nothing and behave like little princesses with an entitlement syndrome (not you of course).

    I wish you the best,

    Arthur

    • Arthur,

      Thanks again for your comments and keeping this all interesting, although my position or attitude is slightly different than yours.

      I have no reliable information to make claims that men would or would not like it if their partner (female) earned more than they did. That’s why I suggested it would be good to do some empirical research on this question.

      As for who does more work, again, there is some research on the matter, such as Catherine Hakim’s research, but it generally seems to be inadequate to the question at hand (i.e. there is not enough of it). It would also be interesting to examine the methodology of those studies to find out whether they counted, for example, commute times to work for wage earners. I also guess that these studies make no attempt to gauge QUALITATIVE differences in different kinds of work. Some work clearly, is very demanding, while other work is not, even though both would be counted as the same number of hours of work.

      I completely agree with your further point, Arthur, regarding child support demands on stepfathers. I did a brief internet search on the issue, and it does seem that in the US, at least, it is rare for a stepfather to be forced to pay child support. I do know, however, that in Canada, this is much more common and appears to be legally codified.

      Anyway, I don’t know who is responsible for this law (feminist or otherwise), but it seems extremely unfair to men (and also stepmothers if it applies to them in some cases). To me, it shows what happens when you have a very powerful women’s rights lobby (which presumably gets a lot of state funding as well), and a compliant media which parrots the perspectives of this lobby, yet on the other hand there is no men’s rights lobby to push in the opposite direction, and stand up for men’s interests/ rights.

      This is one of the main reasons why I think that men need to organize and form their own pressure groups/ NGOs/ lobby.

      Whether that is a reason why some men are not interested in parenting Margaret’s child, I can’t say. I don’t know the law in Margaret’s jurisdiction. But I sense that men these days are far more aware of the potential liabilities (and injustices) that may be done to them, than before, and that these factors do influence their decision making.

  28. Arthur wrote that feminist groups are reponsible for the step father continuing to pay child support after the couple separate. My goodness, this is utter madness. This law does not exist where I live.

    Sometimes the so called do gooders can be very agressive and unfair in what they do. This is like an attack on men. I am assuming that the step mother is not expected to pay for the child after a divorce? Not only have these so called feminists who are supposed to be on the side of women done something nasty to men, they have also done something nasty to women as it means that men rightly will be reluctant to get into a realtionship with any single mothers. The end result is everyone is disadvataged. One would hope that after a break up that these mothers do the just thing and not accept the child care support.

  29. Bonsoir all,

    Margaret, I see that you have not addressed the two questions I have put forward. I’ll give you a chance and pass on that.

    Now, the situation vis-a-vis single mothers is indeed bothersome. The laws and judgements being passed recently do have an effect that some may call negative. Personally I think that ultimately these laws are freeing men as men react by avoiding single women ( because of potential harm to their financial situation) therefore avoiding a potential transfer of their wealth to women. Aditionnaly these laws make it more difficult for single mothers to find a decent suitable mate and make it also likely that their children will not find a decent suitable badly needed replacement father figure. Men act according to their best financial interest (they do not wish to pay child support to a child that is not theirs) therefore women and children end up losing. Sad in a way. To add to it, we should remember that in this day and age this knowledge for men regarding alimony and child support is all over the place, easy to access on the internet. So it is unlikely that the situation will change in the direction of women meeting more available men. I think single mothers will more and more be alone and unable to meet a decent man. Well, from my point of view the women’s lobby shot itself in the foot real bad. And all this is not counting the number of decent men unwilling to marry, again because of the risks involved.

    All this is probably going to go increasing with time and have some sort of permanent aspect. Unless of course these laws are changed which is unlikely.

    Best,

    Arthur

  30. Bonsoir again all,

    As a post-scriptum, oddly enough considering the subject at hand, I will say that just yesterday I received an email from an old friend of mine. Good looking intelligent woman in her late 30’s. She is complaining about the difficulty she has of meeting a decent man her age. I do like her but…she has 3 kids she takes care of from a previous marriage! What man would want to get involved and risking alimony for 3 kids! Too bad.

    Best,

    Arthur

  31. Arthur, I can definately see where you are coming from on this. Maybe it’s time for a mens liberation movement.

  32. Bonsoir Margaret,

    I don’t know about some sort of liberation movement copied on the women’s movement. However I have read in a few places that men are reacting to these issues by withdrawing. Seems that marriage is a definite no no for quite a few men. After hearing and reading about the biased laws and the disasters they bring, men are saying no thanks in increasing numbers. Will this have a snowball effect? Time will tell.

    Best,

    Arthur

  33. Well, thank you both for your comments and I’m glad to see that you reached some sort of common ground on this.

    For me, personally, I don’t want to take an “anti-feminist” position based on the Canada law, because feminists can be different- there is a fair amount of diversity among feminists. I would however, criticize whoever it was that advocated for that particular law that made step-parents financially liable for their step-children on divorce. It just doesn’t seem to be fair.

    A men’s movement the same as a women’s movement might not be in order, because women originally suffered much more than men do now. A men’s movement should seek to redress problems that men face, and uncover some of the disadvantages that men face which are not recognized. At the same time, it should try to be fair to women, not deny the challenges that they face, but it certainly should feel no obligation to agree with feminists (as many pro-feminist men currently do).

    Ideally men’s and women’s movements could eventually cooperate to pursue a “fair deal” for both sexes, instead of the confrontational style that many feminists have used (treating men as the enemy, and generally excluding men from their gender debates).

    For now, men do not seem to be organizing widely, except for “internet activists” and some father’s rights groups.

    But I suspect that the men’s movement will grow eventually.

    As far as Arthur’s comments about men avoiding marriage, it seems there are still plenty of men willing to get married, even at their own peril. I guess it is the years of tradition, the intoxication of romance, that makes them throw chance to the wind. Personally, marriage seems fine, but its a good idea to get a prenuptial agreement. As I understand, in the agreement, the partners can agree to shared custody of children beforehand.

  34. Actually I never pay for myself if I am with man! It is stupid Western culture! At first man stops pay for woman, after stops pay for his wife, after will leave his children! Man should be Man always! In Turkey man pay all time even for girl’s friends and in Middle East also. I am from Europe but if man will ask me for pay my bill- IT WILL BE LAST DATE WITH HIM! IT MEANS THAT HE DOESNT CARE ABOUT ME and actually he is not really interesting in me. Becouse if man really like woman he will do everything for her, paying for her-is normal thing if man respect woman. If man can not allow to pay- he should not invite her for date, dinner… After living and working in Middle East I started to change. Now I don’t want even return back to my country. In my country 80% of man is stingy, that’s why I don’t want meet with them. I saw another world, another man who can really can care about woman, about sister, about wife and children!

    • Bonjour,

      No reasons whatsoever why a man should pay to date a woman. In this day and age it is 50-50. Why on earth should a man let a woman corner him into beaing a provider (beast of burden)? Women are perfectly capable of paying for their own meal. One important requirement is that he makes that clear to her prior to the date! So there will be no awkward moment when the check comes. If she refuses, then you just go for the next one. Easy.

      Best,

      Arthur

    • Estonian Girl,

      It is always interesting to get another perspective, although your perspective is so similar to other women who have posted on here, that I feel I have been repeating myself over and over.

      Interesting that you raise that in Middle Eastern countries men will pay for a woman always… I suspect this is because its a region where men still enjoy a lot of privileges due to being a man, gender roles are still somewhat rigid and men and women are really quite separate. A man pays for women on a date, but he enjoys a lot of privileges from being a man, so it’s a small tradeoff. In fact, he’s probably a lot better off as a man and this is just one small thing to balance it out.

      Western countries are different because there have been a lot of demands for women to be equal in all ways, yet there are still women on here who defend this particular privilege of theirs.

      You are right (and I’ve said this several times already) that not every man is so totally interested in a woman on a first date that he wants to pay for everything. I think that’s pretty normal, and its not that often that a man invites a woman out that he is totally head over heels in love with her… otherwise probably not too many people would be going out…

      He doesn’t respect a woman if he doesn’t pay for her, but what value does he really have if he must pay someone even to be in his presence? That is such an insult to men! We are so lowly that we must pay a woman to be in our presence. What a pathetic condition…

      I don’t think paying for a first date, and helping to take care of your wife and children are the same thing. A family is an economic unit, and it usually involves a commitment that both people will make a contribution in terms of labor and money. Usually before one gets married one has an understanding of what the other person can contribute and accepts the terms of that arrangement.

      Anyway, good luck to you! Not everyone wants the same thing. I wonder how your situation will look once you actually try to settle down and marry with a man from the middle east? There may be some reciprocity that went along with that little payoff in the beginning. But you may prefer it that way. There can be many ways to a happy ending, and I hope you find one!

  35. LOSER GUYS doesn’t want to pay for dates because they dont have the money!! GET REAL MEN!!!

    • Bonjour Rhina,

      The sense of entitlement of this western female borders on the comical. Using the much overused shaming language (sooo predictable!) is pointless Rhina. Surely you can come up with a better argument!

      Please explain to us why a man should be seen as a loser if he refuses to pay for a woman on a date.

      Also, if a man refuses to pay for a woman on a date, he is a loser? Then what can we say about a woman who refuses to pay on a date?

      Best,

      Arthur

  36. My brother, you just said everything that I’ve been trying to put into words since I first started this hypocritical merry-go-round known as dating. You are a hero to all men who wish to pry themselves from beneath the decaying stereotype under which a majority of women insist on placing us. Bravo.

  37. Sorry to post twice in a row, I’m not a troll, I promise! :) (Maybe during the moderation process you can put my two comments together or something)

    To all the women who think that the man should pay for everything and “take care of the woman” because “that’s the way it’s been throughout the centuries,” you’re forgetting a very important factor: Women have also had submissive roles throughout the centuries as well…until recent (as compared to the rest of history) decades when women entered the traditionally male work force and started demanding equal rights, pay, respect…etc. If you want us to continue to pay for everything and “take care of you,” you need to cut out all the b.s. about being independent and not letting a man control you, and just shut up and “get back in the kitchen.” Hey, tradition is tradition. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. If I’m gonna pay for your way, you need to do what I tell you. If I pay for it, it’s my roof. If it’s my roof, it’s my rules. See how that works? God I can’t stand double standards! All right I’m done. Great stuff, Patrick. I think you need more posts like this one. I loved it!

    • The point is not to make women feel that they should go back to being in a submissive role, or go back to the kitchen, etc. The point is that women should be more sensitive to this, one of the ways that men are actually at a disadvantage to women, and how it might make men feel uncomfortable to feel that they have to pay, or else they will be labeled as “cheap” or “stingy”, etc. It’s not nice to feel like you are being coerced into something. It’s also devaluing to men, that in order for a woman even to be present, he has to pay for things for her to be there. I wonder if many men do not subtly feel resentment at being devalued in this way, even if they are not consciously aware of it, or not able to put it into words.

      I didn’t want this to get into a ‘now you must go back to the kitchen’ kind of thing.

      Even if men are paying for things, it’s unlikely that most women would accept being ordered around. Even in more traditional countries, where the man has more economic power, most of the time his authority is probably exercised more through suggestion than a kind of bossiness. Women want to be respected and treated decently even if they are not the main earner in the family. Ordering a woman around like a domestic servant probably wouldn’t get very far in any situation.

      If you somehow feel attracted to this kind of scenario then I suggest you might want to reconsider your relationships, or your underlying desire to be in total control and what this represents. Or why you feel that way…

  38. Bonsoir,

    Personally I am not a fan of this get back in the kitchen type mentality. What I do care about mainly is the acceptance of equality, real equality. I am so not surprised nowadays to see that women hang on to old principles when it is at their advantages to do so. Men paying for the meal on a date is a classic. On the long run, it would be better for men as a whole if they’d make it clear upfront that they will not pay for the whole date and be ready to walk away if the female opposes, even ever so slightly. That paying for the date is a typical woman shit test.

    Next step in the quest for true equality: non sexist olympic games in which women and men compete together. Check how women would react to this. What’s more they would have to compete with the same tools (same as men for the hammer weight, same height for the hurdles, etc.). Let’s hear it for true equality.

    Best,

    Arthur

    • Arthur, as I have mentioned before, you’re a lot more ‘militant’ than I am, but everyone has their own perspective, their own approach. If it works for you then…

      As for the Olympics, well… I’m sure women could probably respond that there is some way that they have a natural advantage, and if there were a competition in that sector, they would probably win… Maybe a compassion Olympics?

  39. Patrick,

    I meant no disrespect to women with my post, or to your site for that matter, my friend. You sound like a great guy with a lot of great views on things and I couldn’t agree more with everything you said…espescially about the devaluation of men. It’s almost an inside joke with women nowadays: “How much can I milk out of this one?” I guess I must be a little more offended by it than you are. I actually believe in gender equality too. I’m not one of those slobbering beer-bellied cup raisers. I don’t actually order women around, I was just making a point about true equality. You know how it is when your kids are still under the roof and you tell them, “When you can start paying part of the bills, you can have a little more freedom.” Yes, I think the notion of a woman being treated like a little kid and ordered around by her man is ridiculous…but no more ridiculous than making the man pay for everything while the woman sits on her fat a** all day and eats ice cream while watching soaps before heading out to Parisian to spend the rest of his paycheck on shoes and purses. Growing up, I watched my mom treat my dad like a tool to make money and support her and us, and I wondered where this attitude was before we kids came along. Would he have even married her if he had known? Where was the love? All I could see were dollar signs in her eyes and I felt so bad for him.

    I have a little story about when I was younger and had a job as a cashier. I was the opener at a grocery store, which means I relieved the night cashier at 7 in the morning. There were these women who would come in and you could just tell that they (their husbands) were pretty well off by the way they dressed and acted. And every time one of them walked up to the register, I always knew what they wanted… They would walk up and buy a single pack of gum with a debit card. After it rung up, they would hit the “cash back” key and usually request about $50. Now this wasn’t just a once a week thing, either. This was at least 3-4 times a week (for each of them). Oblivious to the ways of the world, I asked one of them what she did for a living that she could afford to spend so much on a pack of gum. She told me that it was her husband’s card. Then she got this michievous look on her face and said something to the effect of, “What he doesn’t know won’t hurt him,” and gave me a conspiratorial wink. After that, I started looking at the names on these cards, and they were all male names. I remember thinking, “Wow, I hope I never end up with one of those kinds of women.” But in experiencing the world first-hand, I found out that it’s much more prevalent than I ever imagined back then.

    I also noticed that you must have deleted my third post about “The Good Wife’s Guide” of 1955. I promise you it wasn’t meant to be a joke or offensive in any way. That’s what was truly expected of women back then because they knew that their husbands worked so hard to support them. If I could find a woman like that nowadays (good luck, right?), I seriously would gladly pay for everything of hers, no questions asked.

    I also agree with what you said about wondering if other guys feel as resentful about being devalued like that. I don’t think most guys are as expressive of their feelings as those of us who have the gift of writing. I also think that just as (most) women have been conditioned to be spoiled, (most) men have been conditioned to indulge them. It’s a form of empowerment. Women just give those pouty lips and we just can’t help it. It’s that protective instict like women have with children. Just as they are hard-wired to protect the kids, we are hard-wired to protect them.

    I like your idea about monetary contribution being relative to individual income. Right on the head, buddy. I couldn’t agree more. But you know that there will always be those women who want to have their cake and eat it too. I guess all we can really do is avoid the hell out of them, because they are too conditioned already to truly change their minds.

    On a side note, my sister turned out to be one of those women who just dates guys to get free meals. No only does she never commit, she laughs at them and says, “Hey, if they’re that stupid…” She’s pretty much a “sport dater.”

  40. Arthur,

    I agree, I think we should take a stand. I love the Olympics idea, too. Good stuff, man. Well met.

  41. Patrick,

    Oh, I see now. You didn’t delete my comment about The Good Wife’s Guide, it’s just awaiting moderation. Oops!

  42. In my 4th paragraph, I mentioned empowerment. What I meant was Enabling Behavior. I found a great article on this and if you would allow it, I would like to post a link:

    http://www.internet-of-the-mind.com/enabling_behavior.html

    This very informative and I also think it is what we men do for women when we elect to keep paying for them. Again, at the risk of sounding redundant, I believe it is that protective instinct we men have for women that promotes this behavior.

    • Yeah, you’re right, I didn’t show that comment because I thought it might offend someone. My name is on this blog, and I have a lot of friends who are women’s rights activists. So even though it’s not my comment, if it reaches someone’s tolerance limit, it might just make someone pissed off at me! I think most of them are reasonable, but sometimes when people encounter thinking which is just totally opposed to the way they think, it’s just too much and they can’t handle it.

      Anyway, excuse me that I misunderstood your intention. I’ll reply more to your new comments again soon…

  43. I understand, and it’s cool man. You don’t want to alienate your friends. Sometimes they’re all you’ve got. But isn’t it funny how something that was not only non-offensive back in 1955, but was actually status quo, could be so offensive today? And don’t worry about the misunderstanding, I have a tendency to come across as an extremist sometimes, but I’m just very passionate about my causes.

  44. Ok in my opinion I think on the first date men should pay for the date. To be honest I actually myself will offer to pay for something by the end of the date. Tip or buy a drink but I usually get told no. Then if there is a second date I will offer to pay something again. That is me though I am in a bad financial situation right now and don’t really go out to eat and avoid drinking out so I understand the struggle of how much restaurants cost and I actually feel awkward to order something expensive. I know most woman expect a man to pay. But by a month of dating I think a girl should have offered to pay something at some point if not every other time. If you became a couple you should be sharing some expenses by that point.

    • Well, we’re really getting a lot of comments on this post! Patricia, I think I know you, don’t I? : )

      Well, I hear what you are saying Patricia. You are one of the moderate ones, I suppose. You feel the man should pay but you offer to pay something. And you can understand the cost of things and appreciate that it might bite into one’s budget. So you’re being understanding and not dogmatic as some others here have been. What would you do and how would you feel if a guy actually took you up on an offer to pay?

      It sounds like men in your part of the world are still fairly chivalrous. I would say if a guy offers to pay regularly, he is either doing well financially, really likes that woman, or is deeply socialized to fulfill his role…

      My own recent experience, I paid for everything because I knew my date was a starving student. But she didn’t overdo it (for example she didn’t even order anything to drink at the second place we went.) She offered to pay at the third place, which I refused because as I said, I knew she has, like, no money.

      But my financial situation is good, now so it’s not much of a worry, although I still like to save as much as I can.

      Thanks for your comment Patricia! Good to hear another perspective…

  45. Bonsoir Patricia,

    Your answer is typical of north american women and reflects the over inflated sense of entitlement that prevails amongst them. Why don’t you answer a simple question: why should the man pay on the first date? In my opinion, men should avoid letting themselves be cornered by women into being providers. This ought to start…on the very first date. Obviously many women will resent the loss of privilege, free movie, meal, drinks, etc. On ne fait pas d’omelettes sans casser les oeufs (you cannot make an omelet if you do not crack the eggs). Seems that true equality may upset a few women. Such is life!

    Best,

    Arthur

  46. I would also not want to go on a second date with a man who doesn’t pay. Yes, I’m traditional, which also means I accept a subordinate role in the relationship(washing cloithes, doing dishes, while the man gets to do his own duties). A real man takes care of a lady. If you don’t have enough money to pay, then get a girl who orders cheaper stuff or don’t go on dates then. My BF and I don’t go non dates because he has financial trouble, and I’m fine with that. But when we do go out, he always offers to pay like a true gentleman. It is that way with most women in my area, but some women like to act dominant while also beijg treated, that I consider selfish.

    • Hi Yvette,

      It’s not about not having enough to pay, it’s more about being obligated to do something, even if you don’t want to, just because of a social expectation that’s been drummed into people since they were children. It’s about the message that it sends that men have less value than women, that they actually have to pay women before they will even be in their presence.

      You’re still living in a traditional mindset, I am not. You’re still thinking the way you were taught to, whereas I have questioned it (among other things).

      These days most of the time I actually pay for everything when I go out, but just because the women I go out with have so little money it’s unthinkable to ask them to pay. But I don’t go out of my way to buy things for women, either (such as buying drinks for women I don’t know if I go out to a club).

      It all depends on the situation, but I’m just trying to make people more flexible in their thinking on this subject.

    • I think it’s also worth keeping in mind that a guy who pays for things on the rare occasion when he goes out with his girlfriend is a lot different than paying on the first date for someone that you may never see again. Your boyfriend probably gets a lot of benefit and happiness out of you as his girlfriend, so it’s a small price to pay. But when it’s something you have to ante up (even if you don’t want to), and that person may never want to see you again, or vice versa, it can lead someone to feel like they’re being used.

  47. Sometimes when I read my former comments I just have to laugh!

  48. Bonjour Yvette,

    About this “being a gentleman” thing. If men must behave like gentlemen with respect to women (and that implies various behaviours, paying for dates, etc.) tell us what the behaviour of women ought to be in order for them to be qualified as ladies? Also tell us what behaviour women would manifest that would make them “not ladies”

    Best,

    Robert

  49. If you cannot pay for a date how are you supposed to be able to pay for children ect? Considering you are a healthy heterosexual male who may want them one day? Who is going to watch them while both people work? And how will that be payed for? Anyways, my grandparents have been married 62 yrs. And to be honest men do not come like my grandfather anymore and YOU are actually what is wrong with men now a days and a complete turn off for anyone woman with a healthy self esteem, looks and something going for them. My grandfather came from Harlan Kentucky and did not even have shoes till he was a teen. Came to MI and met my grandmother. Worked all his life with no education. And raised 9 children without bitching about it while my grandmother stayed home to raise them. And here you guys are complaining about paying for a date. Its shameful and unemasculating. Why don’t you go and date eachother? Because no woman with a real brain in her head would want you GROSS!

    • Bonjour,

      This is soooo interesting. Jane, certainly you realize that when your grandfather met your grandmother the social context was totally different. Do you really want women’s situation to be that of the 40’s? Because you know, if you want to corner men to take on the old role as a provider then you’ll have to accept that women will have to also fulfill the old stay at home role, without having the right to vote, have a bank account, etc, etc. Is that what you really want? I think not.

      As to paying for a date, what the hell has this to do with paying for children??? Two adults are dating, having children is quite probably totally out of the equation!!! They are dating, nothing else. The very large majority of people who date end up never having children togehter!

      Tell us, why is it that women want to be liberated from the old stereotype but at the same time want men to stay frozen in the same role? Nothing should force a man to be the provider in the first place, he can just as well MGTOW. Check it out on google.

      In my neck of the wood it’s 50/50 and the woman knows it from the beginning. If it does not suit her then she is history. Period.

      So, Jane, I have asked a couple of questions here. Will you be able to answer them rationally? We are waiting.

      Best,

      Arthur

  50. Man is not obligated pay for woman. I am agree with this ….But If man will not pay for me I will never meet with him again! No problem… it will be his choice!

    • Fortunately I don’t know you! What a jerk!

    • Bonjour Dalila,

      Well, if you refuse to see him again because he did not pay for the date, then he clearly just got rid of a very nasty gold digger. Good for him.

      Best,

      Arthur.

  51. Bonjour Jane,

    We are still waiting for your answers on the questions I asked! You probably are a wee bit short on logical arguments, right?

    We’ll give you a few more days to think this rationally.

    Best,

    Arthur

  52. I’m a German girl and a woman expecting a man to constantly pay for every date is hugely unpopular in Germany and women demanding such a thing are seen as gold diggers and users. Men and women usually alternate paying for dates.

    In my experience, this is pretty standard in Central and Northern Europe. It’s only when you go to less developed countries with less educated people that you will see more of the traditional gender roles. Mainly, because these people don’t really question the validity of their roles. For them, it’s a religion that you just have to follow.

    And guess what, children in Germany are still being fed and nurtured, by both men and women. To somehow suggest, as some women did here, that not forcing men into 19th century gender roles is going to leave your children starving, is ludicrous.

    It’s like saying “OMG, if he doesn’t buy me shoes and clothes and takes me on vacations to Italy and buys me everything I want while I keep my own money, how’s he gonna feed the children??? Think of the children!!!”

    Guess what, if HE has to constantly pay for everything YOU consume, because you’re either too lazy to work or too selfish to spend your own money, how’s he going to save money for your children?

    He not only has to feed his own biological children, he also has to feed one more child, YOU. Because you’re behaving like one.

    And who’s to say that only men have to support their family? There are also many women who are earning money and are supporting the family, while their MEN are watching the kids. I see men with infants and children every single day. That works, because, newsflash, WOMEN CAN WORK, TOO.

    And surprise, surprise, children in Central Europe are much better off in pretty much every aspect than in countries with more traditional gender roles.

    Of course, that’s never going to work for you as a woman, if you’re too selfish or too lazy to work yourself and expect your man to hand everything to you on a golden platter.

    If you’re just standing there, saying “Hey, look, I’ve got boobs, now give me all your money and feed our children. I won’t do that myself, because boobs. You have to do that, because no boobs.”

    Seriously, parents need to step up and quit propagating these antiquated gender rules. This kind of nonsense cannot die soon enough. It defies any kind of logic and if you’re defending this nonsense, you’re either incapable of logical thinking or extremely selfish or both.

    “In the middle of their dinner, they started to talk about “stinginess” and asked me if I am “stingy”.”

    If I was you, I’d reply with: “Generally, I’m very generous, but towards entitled and manipulative women, I’m extremely stingy. What about you? Are you manipulative?” … with a bit of a smile. Let them walk their way out of this one.

    Or reply with: “I’m very generous when she’s generous, stingy when she’s stingy. Are you stingy? Are you stingy when it comes to paying for a date?”

    Don’t let them manipulate you into being their slave. Don’t be so foolish. Use their own arguments against them. Don’t be so obedient and defensive, THAT would be unmanly. Be offensive.

    Some women say they like to be old-fashioned when it means more money in their pocket. Modern when they get stuff. There is no intellectual debate here. It’s just greedy people wanting what is in their best interest.

    You can see that best, when these types of women are confronted with logic. They will get defensive and just continue to say “A man has to pay. A man has to pay. A man has to pay.” like a prayer with no basis in fact and no underlying argument to support their assertion. “A man has to pay” as if it suddenly becomes true just because you say it often enough. It feels more like a bad attempt at brainwashing than a real discussion.

    I find it amusing that some women here are suggesting that you must lack self-esteem if you even think about contributing equally to your relationship. Narcissistic Personality Disorder, much?

    I’ve got a lot of self-esteem and I enjoy standing on my own feet and not being dependent on a man. I want an equal partner that respects me. Men around here often want an equal partner. They are man enough to want an equal partner and they are not frightened by women who earn and spend their own money. In that respect, I often find men around here a lot more manly in terms of their personality and self-esteem than those kind of men whose little ego is hurt if the woman wants to buy them something.

    I wouldn’t think highly of a man that thinks he has to buy me everything while I’m just standing there looking like an entitled princess. I would think of him as a fool with low self-esteem.

    I always insist on paying my own half on the first date. Some men are OK with that, others insist on inviting me. If they invite me, I’ll invite them on the second date. There are millions of independent and caring women out there that don’t use you as a free meal ticket. Who actually care about you. Give them a chance and stop catering to and supporting selfish women by enabling these antiquated gender roles.

    And I’m far from alone with this opinion:

    http://judgybitch.com/2013/09/09/helena-andrews-explains-why-men-should-always-pay-for-dinner-youre-gonna-love-it-trust-me/

    A girl that doesn’t contribute equally isn’t worth dating. Dump her to the curb. End of story.

    • Thanks Sarah,

      That is very interesting to read and you made a lot of the points better than I could. Also interesting to see the video and blog post that you posted in your comment. It seems like there is a lot of debate on this subject.

  53. Bonjour Jane,

    It’s been almost a year now and we are still waiting for your answer to my question. Are we then to assume that you are at a loss for a logical answer, that you lost the argument and have changed your perception/cognition accordingly?

    Best,

    Arthur


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